"Coming of Age in Second Life"

August 24, 2008

welcome

"Coming of Age in Second Life"
Transcript of a Discussion led by Tom Bukowski
August 24, 2008

Organized by Riven Homewood
Director, Steelhead Public Library, Steelhead City, Second Life

Edited - Published by Sky Light
Publisher's Note

Copyright

Notice:
Second Life® is a trademark of Linden Lab and refers to the 3-D virtual world created by its residents, not to any other virtual world.

Location:
American Anthropologist Virtual Campus, Anteater Island, Second Life

[13:58] Tom Bukowski: Yes, welcome all. I designed this place all by myself, but sadly this may be the only event that takes place here. Unless I can find people to help me run this virtual campus I may have to close it soon - I just don't have the time right now.
[13:59] JJ Drinkwater: Time is the rarest commodity in SL.
[13:59] Elegia Underwood: Was that a thinly veiled request for volunteers?
[13:59] Tom Bukowski: No, not really lol. Ideally I'll get a grad student of mine or two to do it, but probably not doable.
[14:02] Riven Homewood: In that case - perhaps we should begin.

introducing the speaker

[14:02] Riven Homewood: I'm so glad you could all come today.
[14:02] Riven Homewood: My friend Nichus gave me a copy of Tom's book and a hearty recommendation - and I'm so glad he did
[14:03] Riven Homewood: I don't usually read books about sl - they make me too angry. They usually seem to be written by people who don't know much about sl and don't understand it
[14:04] Riven Homewood: It was a great pleasure to read one by somebody who obviously knows sl well and loves it as much as I do
[14:04] Tom Bukowski: aww
[14:04] Riven Homewood: and who appreciates the fact that it is really all about friendship and community.

about sl, the audience comments

"SL is really all about friendship and community," Riven Homewood has said (14:04) while introducing the speaker.
[14:04] Mug of Ale whispers: Here, here!
[14:04] Elegia Underwood: And creativity.
[14:05] Riven Homewood: Yes! and creativity too
[14:05] Heidi Ballinger: and business
[14:05] Leeorie Alter: and learning
[14:05] Leeorie Alter: :)
[14:05] Heidi Ballinger: lol
[14:05] Azul Draken wonders how long the list will get
[14:05] Riven Homewood: Tom's book is scholarly and well documented
[14:05] Roy Smashcan: and sex *cough*cough*cough*
[14:05] Tom Bukowski: and shopping
[14:05] Demi Janus: self discovery
[14:05] Riven Homewood: LOL
[14:05] Gabrielle Riel grins at Roy
[14:05] JJ Drinkwater stifles Roy
[14:05] Forelle Broek hands Roy a coughdrop
[14:05] Extropia DaSilva: Trying to pigeon hole Sl never works, it can be too many things to too many people.
[14:05] Riven Homewood: anything else I missed?
[14:05] Azul Draken: fun?
[14:05] Galactic Baroque: and a home that wanders with you, for the travelers
[14:05] JJ Drinkwater: Fashion
[14:05] Riven Homewood: Right
[14:06] Riven Homewood: It's about all of those things
[14:06] Riven Homewood: and freedom
[14:06] Riven Homewood: and the ability to try things you might not be able to try in rl
[14:06] Leeorie Alter: nods
[14:06] Ludo Merit: Fun.
[14:06] Riven Homewood: this book talks about all that, and I'm really pleased that Tom is able to talk with us about it today

giving the floor to the speaker

[14:07] Riven Homewood: And with that - I think I will turn it over to Tom and let him tell you about it
[14:07] Tom Bukowski: Cool!
[14:07] Tom Bukowski: First, thank you all for coming

chat format, a decision

[14:07] Tom Bukowski: Second, my avatar looks like a black empty space probably because of a bad internet connection + old laptop + who knows what with the grid
[14:08] Tom Bukowski: for that and due to audience preferences, I'll use chat tho some would have liked voice
[14:08] Tom Bukowski: sorry about that!
[14:08] Extropia DaSilva: You are a shadow of your former self, huh?
[14:08] Tom Bukowski: I'll try to keep up with the typing and the wisecracks
[14:08] Elegia Underwood: You mean the helpful supplementary comments, don't you, Tom?
[14:08] Tom Bukowski: exactly Elegia lol
[14:09] Riven Homewood: And I've had two requests for transcripts so far, so text is really helpful.

structure of the presentation

[14:08] Tom Bukowski: what I'll do is tell you real quick about myself
[14:08] Tom Bukowski: and the book and all, there was a request for that
[14:09] Tom Bukowski: and then we'll just make it a free - form Q&A as far as I'm concerned
[14:09] Tom Bukowski: so real quick about me and the book, and then a free-form chat, because I want to learn from all of you too

personal background

[14:09] Tom Bukowski: so briefly
[14:09] Tom Bukowski: irl my name is Tom Boellstorff
[14:09] Tom Bukowski: just a sec
[14:09] Tom Bukowski: http://www.anthro.uci.edu/faculty_bios/boellstorff/boellstorff.php
[14:09] Tom Bukowski: there, that's my faculty webpage
[14:10] Tom Bukowski: I'm 39 years old and a Taurus lol
[14:10] Tom Bukowski: I finished my PhD at Stanford in 2000
[14:10] Tom Bukowski: and have been a professor at University of Calif Irvine since 2002
[14:10] Tom Bukowski: that's near Los Angeles

research

[14:10] Tom Bukowski: my original and continuing research is in Indonesia
[14:10] Tom Bukowski: on gay, lesbian, and transgender Indonesians
[14:10] Tom Bukowski: I've written two books about that and been going there for 15 years, I'm fluent in the Indonesian language, etc.
[14:11] Tom Bukowski: but about 5 years ago, after I knew the two books were basically done
[14:11] Tom Bukowski: I thought I might try something very different.

entry into sl

[14:11] Tom Bukowski: I had always liked video games and simulations
[14:11] Tom Bukowski: and found out about The Sims Online, Second Life, and so on
[14:11] Tom Bukowski: so the idea I had was:
[14:11] Tom Bukowski: what if an anthropologist goes to a virtual world
[14:11] Tom Bukowski: which was a really new thing
[14:11] Tom Bukowski: esp back in 2002 or so
[14:12] Tom Bukowski: when Second Life had around 5000 accounts
[14:12] Tom Bukowski: and a normal max concurrency of around 200
[14:12] JJ Drinkwater wonders how long it took The Esteemed Anthropologist to learn to speak Avatar
[14:12] Tom Bukowski: what if an anthropologist goes to this new "place"
[14:12] Tom Bukowski: and tries to study it, just as an experiment, with the most "traditional" methods of anthropology
[14:12] Tom Bukowski: not really "traditional" of course
[14:12] Forelle Broek: "An anthropologist, a sociologist, and an economist walk into a virtual world ..."
[14:12] Tom Bukowski: but what would happen if I take Second Life seriously as a place of human culture
[14:12] Azul Draken snickers
[14:12] Tom Bukowski: and that's what I did, basically
[14:12] Tom Bukowski: and from the beginning I've loved Second Life
[14:13] Tom Bukowski: and found it just an amazing place to think about so much
[14:13] Tom Bukowski: identity, community, belief, commerce
[14:13] Tom Bukowski: intimacy
[14:13] Tom Bukowski: etc etc etc

new book

[14:13] Tom Bukowski: so I just published my book Coming of Age in Second Life; An Anthropologist Explores the Virtually Human
[14:13] Tom Bukowski: it's official release was just in June 2008
[14:13] Tom Bukowski: I'm so happy it's getting a lot of interest and kind comments because it was a LOT of work lol
[14:14] Tom Bukowski: it will actually be reviewed in Nature next month, I'm happy about that
[14:14] Leeorie Alter: wow congrats!
[14:14] Tara Yeats: congrats on getting into Nature!
[14:14] Tom Bukowski: and I'm going to keep doing research in Second Life, I hope to start that up soon

recent appointment

[14:14] Tom Bukowski: in the last year I've become Editor-in-Chief of American Anthropologist
[14:14] Tom Bukowski: that's the official journal of the American Anthropological Association
[14:14] Extropia DaSilva: Go, Tom!
[14:14] Elegia Underwood: Wow. Congrats on that!
[14:14] Forelle Broek: Bravo!
[14:14] Tom Bukowski: I will be editor of the journal until 2012
[14:14] Gi Tammas: congrats
[14:14] Azul Draken: Well done!
[14:14] Malburns Writer APPLAUDS!!!

research, its acceptance and rejection

[14:14] Tom Bukowski: I think one nice side effect of being Editor-in-Chief is that it indicates how research on virtual worlds is legitimate
[14:14] Leeorie Alter: until 2012....when the world will end
[14:14] Leeorie Alter: lol
[14:14] Tom Bukowski: Because you would not believe the dismissal I've gotten from some folks lol
[14:15] Azul Draken: Oh yes I would
[14:15] North Lamar: we believe
[14:15] Forelle Broek: me too Tom
[14:15] Krystine Qinan: We can believe it.
[14:15] Caliburn Susanto: Yes we would.
[14:15] Elegia Underwood: Oh, yes, we would.
[14:15] Tom Bukowski: the down side of being an editor is it makes it hard for me to spend time in Second Life doing research, but I'm going to keep trying
[14:15] MaCelia Morane: I believe it!
[14:15] Leeorie Alter: o yes
[14:15] padlurowncanoe Dibou: affirm the dismissal part
[14:15] Riven Homewood: Um hum :-)

volley of questions from the audience (with some quips)

[14:15] Tom Bukowski: Okay, enough introduction, let's have a discussion! Ask anything you wish, there's no way I could possibly be offended
[14:15] Tom Bukowski: If too may questions pile up, Riven can help keep track
[14:16] Leeorie Alter: Tom how have you seen SL change?
[14:16] Azul Draken: Curiosity...is there any overlap between your earlier work and the SL work?
[14:16] Tom Bukowski: Two good questions to start!
[14:16] Elegia Underwood: How did you account for the seamier side of SL... Gor, BDSM, etc?
[14:16] Tom Bukowski: ooh three
[14:16] Forelle Broek thinks bling is the seamier side of SL
[14:16] Riven Homewood: And perhaps Forelle and Leeorie will help keep track too, so we have some backup
[14:16] Azul Draken: Seamy is in your POV
[14:17] Elegia Underwood laughs, "That, too, Forelle."
[14:17] padlurowncanoe Dibou: do you teach in SL -- and what reactions do you get from colleagues and admin regarding SL and its education possibilities
[14:17] North Lamar: can you talk about reactions you have received to "virtual anthropology vs virtual ethnography"
[14:17] Tom Bukowski: (oh wow, so many good questions, I'll try to keep track)
[14:17] Leeorie Alter: lol
[14:17] Extropia DaSilva: I noticed you put "place" in inverted commas, as if you feel SL is not really a place at all. Well, why not? It is a 3d environment, it has community, society. And RL is mostly virtual, being predominantly fashions, commercialism, and monetary systems. So um, what is wrong with calling this a place?
[14:17] Azul Draken: Smart audience here If I do say so myself
[14:18] Cate Ceawlin: I would like to hear something about how if and how ethics issues in research are different from RL

"how has sl changed?"

[14:17] Tom Bukowski: okay, first Leeorie (sorry if I misspell names, typing fast)
[14:17] Tom Bukowski: how has Second Life changed? - of course the answer is in some ways a lot and in some ways not a lot
[14:17] Tom Bukowski: There are obviously more subcultures, more diversity, particularly non-English stuff which was virtually absent at the beginning
[14:18] Tom Bukowski: I actually flew across every corner of every sim in Second Life when I started - took me 5 days. Not remotely possible now! Back then, only one island - Avalon, now thousands. but some things haven't changed like you would think - basic ideas around identity, place, afk, trust, all of that

"do you think sl is a place?"

[14:18] Tom Bukowski: Quick thing out of order for Extropia. I absolutely think that Second Life is a place
[14:19] Tom Bukowski: In the book, I purposely talk about place before topics like identity, avatars, and sexuality
[14:19] Tom Bukowski: because I think above all what makes a virtual world a virtual world is that they are places - Richard Bartle has been very clear and helpful on this point
[14:19] Caliburn Susanto: It's how I describe SL to all Non-SL'rs … It's not a game, it a PLACE. They get that.

typographical errors, an apology

[14:19] Tom Bukowski: sorry so many typos trying to keep up
[14:20] Tara Yeats suspects most here read typo fluently
[14:20] Elegia Underwood: We all speak typonese, Tom. It goes with the territory. Type away.

"is there any overlap between your earlier work and your sl work?"

[14:19] Tom Bukowski: Azul - overlap question
[14:20] Tom Bukowski: I purposely had the idea of doing something completely different form my Indonesia research, but there are amazing links at a conceptual level
[14:20] Tom Bukowski: my first book is called The Gay Archipelago because I was interested in how Indonesians took this idea "gay" from halfway around the world
[14:20] Tom Bukowski: that was supposed to be Western, just an import
[14:20] Tom Bukowski: and made it real for them, something authentic
[14:21] Tom Bukowski: that linked them up to other gay and lesbian people across the Indonesian archipelago, and in a kind of imagined world archipelago too with gay and lesbian people elsewhere
[14:21] Tom Bukowski: and when I talk like that - you can see the parallels
[14:21] Tom Bukowski: with Second Life, a kind of archipelago of places
[14:21] Tom Bukowski: just hit control-M and look at the map!
[14:21] Gabrielle Riel nods
[14:22] Extropia DaSilva: It is also an archipelago of ideals. Think Gorean culture for one.
[14:22] Azul Draken: or norms
[14:21] Tom Bukowski: so that's been interesting
[14:22] Tom Bukowski: to see where those links pop up, without me planning it.

"how did you account for the seamier side of SL … Gor, BDSM, etc?"

[14:22] Tom Bukowski: okay, next question: Elegia
[14:22] Tom Bukowski: Your question about the seamier side of Second Life
[14:22] Tom Bukowski: because Second Life is a place, you really find the same range of things that you do in the actual world
[14:22] Tom Bukowski: there's a lot of what appears to be boring suburbia, etc.
[14:22] Tom Bukowski: but also all of that "seamy" stuff -
[14:23] Elegia Underwood: In response to Azul's comment re POV, I am living by Kurt Vonnegut's quote these days: "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be."
[14:23] Caliburn Susanto: I'm not pretending … I really am a BD/SM person.

anonymity

[14:23] Tom Bukowski: one interesting aspect to that has to do with the question of anonymity in Second Life
[14:23] Tom Bukowski: that's what I call one of the "four confusions"
[14:23] Tom Bukowski: Second Life is built around anynomity
[14:23] Tom Bukowski: you have to choose an avatar name that is not the same as your rl name, with rare exceptions
[14:23] Tom Bukowski: but you could imagine a virtual world where rl and virtual world names are the same, like a Facebook kind of thing
[14:24] Tom Bukowski: so the anonymity thing of course makes it easier to do some "seamier" stuff
[14:24] Azul Draken: or explore that which you've been afraid to
[14:24] Tom Bukowski: but that is not an inevitable aspect of virtual worlds
[14:24] padlurowncanoe Dibou: not all communities in sl are built around anonymity -- real participation in the ed community often requires transparency:-)
[14:41] Tom Bukowski: yes, not all groups or activities in Second Life are built around being anonymous, that's precisely the point, and I imagine that what will continue into the future is people doing both. For some things I might want to be anonymous, for others not. Slaying dragons for fun or something along those lines in Second Life, versus teaching or a business meeting.
[14:25] Caliburn Susanto: Do you think anonymity is more of a problem for business here ? or security?
[14:26] Stargazer Blazer: Does anonymity have to be a negative?
[14:24] Forelle Broek: I find Goffman very helpful in thinking about those aspects of SL
[14:40] Tom Bukowski: yes, Goffman can be very interesting for thinking about sl

vocabulary: virtual world and actual world

[14:24] Tom Bukowski: that's why in my book I say "virtual world" and "actual world"
[14:24] Tom Bukowski: here when typing fast I might say rl
[14:24] Tom Bukowski: I never use the phrase "real world" because both are real
[14:24] Tom Bukowski: when I write, I never say "real world"
[14:26] Heidi Ballinger: Very true (hate to use RL and IRL) SL is the same as reading a newspaper or surfing on the net … We need another common word to use for being online in VW
[14:26] Extropia DaSilva: 'RL' is like the word 'atom'. We know we apply it to the wrong thing (atoms are divisible, after all) but the word has stuck.

"do you teach in sl?"

[14:25] Tom Bukowski: okay, next question - sorry I'm trying to keep up - what a great audience!
[14:25] Tom Bukowski: padlu - do I teach in Second Life
[14:26] Tom Bukowski: haven't had much chance yet, I think there are great possibilties as you can see
[14:26] Tom Bukowski: so many experiments going on
[14:26] Tom Bukowski: but obviously too many still based on the traditional educational model
[14:26] Tom Bukowski: there is going to be a lot of great experimentation with that I suspect

"what reactions have you received to 'virtual anthropology' cf 'virtual ethnography'?"

[14:26] Tom Bukowski: continuing
[14:26] Tom Bukowski: ahh too many good questions
[14:26] Tom Bukowski: North Lamar: can you talk about reactions you have received to "virtual anthropology vs virtual ethnography"
[14:27] Tom Bukowski: what I say in the book is that in anthropology, the norm is to talk about medical anthropology, legal anthro, etc.
[14:27] Tom Bukowski: not medical ethnography, that's more focused on method
[14:27] Forelle Broek smiles at "legal anthro"
[14:27] Tom Bukowski: so I usually say "virtual anthro" not "virtual ethno," but if you are really focused on methods
[14:27] Tom Bukowski: then of course in that context "virtual ethnography" makes sense
[14:27] Azul Draken ponders "illegal Anthro"
[14:27] North Lamar: am i writing my diss [dissertation] proposal right now (due Friday), and your book was very timely for me … when i mention virtual anthropology to my committee they roll their eyes (i'm in information science)
[14:27] Forelle Broek: Heh!
[14:28] Tom Bukowski: North - I work with Paul Dourish at Irvine in Informatics - email me later
[14:28] Tom Bukowski: that's unfortunate
[14:28] North Lamar: but they seem ok with virtual ethnography, just curious as to other reactions you have received about the term

"are research ethics different from rl?"

[14:28] Tom Bukowski: okay, Cate's question
[14:28] Tom Bukowski: Cate Ceawlin - I would like to hear something about if and how ethics issues in research are different from RL
[14:28] Tom Bukowski: ethics - I have a section on this in my book
[14:28] Tom Bukowski: for me it was not too hard, because in my research I never ask about "rl" information, and I never even use people's screen names
[14:29] Tom Bukowski: I change the names of sims, places, everything
[14:29] Tom Bukowski: change small details so the persons are untraceable
[14:29] Tom Bukowski: it's a different issue if you want to ask about rl info or meet people in the actual world, but even then doable
[14:29] Tom Bukowski: basically the ethics issues are much easier than with gay men or lesbian women in Indonesia, home to more Muslims than any other country
[14:29] Tom Bukowski: things are fine there, but I do have to be careful
[14:30] Tom Bukowski: the other ethical decision I made for the Second Life research was not to use alts
[14:30] Riven Homewood: When I first encountered researchers in sl, my worry was that they would look at me as a sort of freak - many of them seemed quite new to sl
[14:30] Tom Bukowski: and if you see my profile, I say right away that I'm an anthropologist
[14:30] Gabrielle Riel: Interesting...no Alts :-)
[14:30] Tom Bukowski: I'm not saying everyone has to do that, just that it worked best for that particular research project and for me
[14:30] Tom Bukowski: but I think it's important to not deceive people
[14:31] Tom Bukowski: basically, I find research in Second Life a joy
[14:31] Forelle Broek didn't think Riven was a freak when he first met her
[14:31] Gabrielle Riel nods in agreement
[14:31] Tom Bukowski: people love to be interviewed, love to talk and hang
[14:31] Tom Bukowski: if you just show basic respect
[14:31] Tom Bukowski: and listen to people
[14:31] Tom Bukowski: it's amazing what can happen!

"why do we tend to call it 'RL' information?"

[14:31] Heidi Ballinger: But why do we tend to call it "RL" information? SL is as real for me as anything else is :)
[14:31] Tom Bukowski: yes heidi, I *never* say "real life" or "rl" in my writings, just doing it here for speed
[14:31] Tom Bukowski: I'll say "aw" for actual world
[14:31] Tom Bukowski: how about that, that's what I do in the book
[14:32] Tom Bukowski: because if you say vw/rw
[14:32] Tom Bukowski: you asume a real world that is computer free
[14:32] Tom Bukowski: and that virtuality hasn't always been part of the human expeirnece
[14:32] Heidi Ballinger: Tom, I will use "AW" in the future - and say its word establish by Tom B (can never say your last name right) hee!
[14:32] Caliburn Susanto: Physical World and Synthetic World always seem clear to most
[14:33] Roy Smashcan: We're all used to talking about SL and RL - it's easier to do that and let the philosophical implications lie.

"how do your colleagues react to your work?"

[14:32] Tom Bukowski: okay, lemme find the next question - what an audience!
[14:32] Leeorie Alter: lol
[14:32] Riven Homewood: Tom - people are asking about how your colleagues react to your Second Life research
[14:32] Tom Bukowski: Marilena Basevi: I'd like to hear about the reactions of other anthropologists to your work
[14:33] Tom Bukowski: It has been very very interesting
[14:33] Tom Bukowski: It has generally been very positive - the book is already going into a first reprint, and lot of anthropologists are teaching with it
[14:33] Tom Bukowski: but from the beginning there has also been hostility
[14:33] Gabrielle Riel: I bet
[14:33] Tom Bukowski: More than I ever got for studying gay people, which surprised me
[14:33] Siri Woodget: wow
[14:33] Galactic Baroque: weird
[14:33] Tom Bukowski: There are anthropologists how are threatened by technology
[14:34] Tom Bukowski: And there is still a strong emphasis on studying "remote" indigenous cultures in some quarters of anthropology (though certainly not all). So what I sometimes get are reactions like:
[14:34] Tom Bukowski: "aren't those people without a real life"
[14:34] Tom Bukowski: "aren't those just wealthy elites"
[14:34] Tom Bukowski: "isn't it just sex and violence"
[14:34] Tom Bukowski: none of that will surprise most of you
[14:34] Riven Homewood: Yes - I hear that too - " I hardly have time for my first life!"
[14:34] Tom Bukowski: I basically got no research funding for this - all rejections
[14:34] Tom Bukowski: and I purposesly did this after I had tenure
[14:35] Azul Draken: Hooray for tenure
[14:35] Gabrielle Riel: Good idea
[14:35] Gi Tammas: good planning
[14:35] Marilena Basevi: very interesting -- thank you! -- post tenure, no grants
[14:35] Tom Bukowski: So that's one reason why I think it's good I'm Editor-in-Chief of American Anthropologist
[14:35] Tom Bukowski: It makes it a little harder for people to dismiss this kind of research
[14:35] Tom Bukowski: And I have to say, among graduate students and younger anthropologists, there tends to be far less hostility
[14:35] Gabrielle Riel nods
[14:35] Tom Bukowski: And even among the older generation, there's a lot of support too, it's not all dismissive
[14:35] Forelle Broek: same here - my coleagues are perplexed, my students are fascinated
[14:35] Tom Bukowski: But I have been surprised by how often I got a negative reaction
[14:36] Azul Draken: jealousy for not thinking of it?
[14:36] Tom Bukowski: I wonder about that Azul
[…]
[14:42] Tom Bukowski: so just to comment a bit more, I don't want to make it sound like they all roll their eyes. People in my department were all completely supportive, and many others have been.
[14:42] Tom Bukowski: But I can't deny that I have encountered dismissal and rolling of eyes too, more than I expected.

"how do you understand afk beyond a literal interpretation?"

[14:36] Tom Bukowski: okay, lemme find the next question
[14:37] Tom Bukowski: Extropia DaSilva: "I really liked your study in to the term 'AFK' and how it can mean so much more than a literal interpretation. could you talk a bit about that?"
[14:37] Tom Bukowski: One thing that anthropologists usually like to do is get away from the controversies of the day
[14:37] Tom Bukowski: and we certainly have plenty of those in Second Life, lol
[14:37] Forelle Broek often wishes he could go AFK during faculty meetings
[14:37] Tom Bukowski: look at the little things
[14:37] Tom Bukowski: the things that even seem boring
[14:37] Tom Bukowski: and try to learn from them
[14:37] Tom Bukowski: so if you read the book, I have a whole section on afk
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: which probably seems boring
[14:38] Heidi Ballinger: nooo
[14:38] Forelle Broek: not at all - one of the best parts of the book
[14:38] Caliburn Susanto: that was an interesting analysis in the book.
[14:38] Marilena Basevi: I agree -- AFK part was fascinating -- you saw many layers in something that is relatively invisible
[14:38] Roy Smashcan: I actually was afk a couple of minutes ago - making tea :-)
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: but if you really study some examples
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: It can tell you a lot, about really basic issues like the relationships between time and space in virtual worlds
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: how time resists getting virtualized
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: in a way space does not
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: doesn't matter where
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: we are all here, logging in from around the world
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: but we have to be here at the same TIME
[14:38] Tom Bukowski: there is asynchronic sociality of course
[14:39] Tom Bukowski: like when a group of people take turns working on a building, etc
[14:39] Tom Bukowski: but for some things, the social interaction needs to be synchronic
[14:39] Riven Homewood: that is a great term - synchronic
[14:39] Tom Bukowski: so it's just one example of how I love to learn from the little things, not the headlines (although those are interesting too, of course)

inexperienced researchers cf. indepth fieldwork

[14:43] Tom Bukowski: Riven Homewood: "When I first encountered researchers in sl, my worry was that they would look at me as a sort of freak - many of them seemed quite new to sl"
[14:43] Tom Bukowski: Just to say something quick about that
[14:43] Tom Bukowski: To do participant observation right, it can't be a weekend
[14:43] Tom Bukowski: it's years of devotion
[14:43] Tom Bukowski: and frankly a virtual world is easier than many environments - I don't have to fly to Indonesia, get a visa, etc. etc.
[14:44] Leeorie Alter: nods emphatically
[14:44] Azul Draken: Vaccinations
[14:44] Tom Bukowski: the good researchers really devote time, and those that don't you can tell
[14:44] Tom Bukowski: That's why journalists like Hamlet or all around fab people like all of you (see Gwyn's blog for an example) are to my mind incredible experts on Second Life
[14:44] Tom Bukowski: who know more than I do, and I learn from them.
[14:45] Tom Bukowski: But most Indonesians know more about Indonesia than I do, obviously - a researcher doesn't have to have total knowledge, but there does need to be a committment.

"do you find any broad similarities in the personality types in SL?"

[14:41] Leeorie Alter: I'm wondering if you find any broad similarities in the personality types that thrive in SL?
[14:46] Tom Bukowski: I don't think so - I think there are so many kinds of personalities in Second Life
[14:46] Tom Bukowski: I do *not* agree with the idea that people in Second Life "don't have a real life"
[14:46] Tom Bukowski: come on
[14:46] Tom Bukowski: when I interview people, what I find over and over is that Second Life just replaces television, etc. but is much more interactive
[14:46] Tom Bukowski: and there are families that spend time in Second Life together, and people who make new families in Second Life as well
[14:46] Tom Bukowski: there are cases of course where Second Life creates problems for people
[14:46] Tom Bukowski: a relationship gets too intense
[14:47] Tom Bukowski: or time in Second Life starts getting in the way of actual-world activities
[14:47] Forelle Broek: but that's true of anything
[14:47] Forelle Broek: or can be
[14:47] Tom Bukowski: but I don't think that reflects a particular personality type
[14:47] Tom Bukowski: and yes forelle, you can get that from golfing lol
[14:47] Tom Bukowski: or whatever, it's not specific to virtual worlds.

"how hard was it to get this book published"

[14:48] Tom Bukowski: okay, lemme try to find another question
[14:48] Tom Bukowski: Gabrielle Riel: If you waited until after tenure to do this, and received no grants … how hard was it to get this book published?
[14:49] Tom Bukowski: It was very easy
[14:49] Tom Bukowski: that's the funny thing
[14:49] Tom Bukowski: there is all this fear, but also all this interest
[14:49] Tom Bukowski: Princeton jumped on it
[14:49] Tom Bukowski: and I went with them because I wanted a "traditional" press that people take seriously

"do you see many people literally 'coming of age' in sl?"

[14:49] Tom Bukowski: Gwenette Writer: "Tom, do you see many people literally 'coming of age' in sl … maturing into a more 'developed, mature' human beings? That was what your book would address actually.
[14:50] Tom Bukowski: Gwen - not necessarily
[14:50] Tom Bukowski: I came up with that title at the very end
[14:50] Demi Janus: I grew up in SL and I wasn't that young to start with.
[14:50] Tom Bukowski: it's a play on Margaret Mead's "Coming of Age in Samoa," to really get the anthropologist folks to see aspects of what I'm trying to do.
[14:50] Tom Bukowski: and in a way virtual worlds are "coming of age," coming into being
[14:50] Tom Bukowski: but there is such a range in terms of people
[14:50] Tom Bukowski: some people come to Second Life and it really changes them
[14:51] Tom Bukowski: they fall in love, realize they like to design clothes, decide to change their actual-world gender!
[14:51] Gwenette Writer: I am an excellent example of that . . my rl is what it is because of sl skills and success
[14:51] Tom Bukowski: And then there are people that it doesn't really change at all in that kind of sense
[14:51] Tom Bukowski: but they make friends, get to be creative, have a lot of meaningful fun

"did you have preconceptions about what you would find in SL?"

[14:51] Gi Tammas: You said you were a gamer before you started research in SL - did you have preconceptions about what you would find in SL?
[14:52] Tom Bukowski: I wasn't a hard-core gamer, but I grew up on games from Space Invaders to Q-Bert, had an Intellivision, loved Sim Earth and Sim City, etc.
[14:53] Tom Bukowski: so all it meant was that the learning curve wasn't so big for me
[14:53] Tom Bukowski: I can't program - for scripting all I can do is make a texture rotate the other way
[14:53] Tom Bukowski: but I wasn't afraid to learn
[14:53] Tom Bukowski: that sounds simple
[14:53] Tom Bukowski: but I am not kidding when I say that …
[14:53] Tom Bukowski: there are anthropologsts who tell me with pride that they don't even kow how to use powerpoint
[14:53] Gwenette Writer: yes, but it is a common barrier educators & faculty throw at participation … new medium, new skills, no time
[14:54] Tom Bukowski: yes

"how many hours do you estimate you have spent in SL?"

[14:53] padlurowncanoe Dibou: how many hours do you estimate you have spent in SL - just curious
[14:54] Tom Bukowski: padlu: when I was really in the research, maybe 20 hours a week, sometimes more
[14:54] Tom Bukowski: now, sadly, not that much except when I can find the time
[14:55] Tom Bukowski: but I have a proposal with a colleague at Irvine to do a new research project in Second Life on how people use design in their lives, and I really hope to do that in the next few months and set aside even 8-10 hours a week for that
[14:55] Tom Bukowski: hope hope hope
[14:55] Tom Bukowski: I miss spending more time in Second Life
[14:55] Tom Bukowski: I'm glad I'm an editor, but it's a real frustration

"when role-players say they are 'cherokee' are they real?"

[14:55] Tom Bukowski: Sky Light: "please, i'm still keen to delve into the problems about identity in fantasy land. When people role-play at being, for instance, Cherokee, so that they come to live it in here, believe it in here, and even to 'teach' it in here. does this mean that I have become authentically Cherokee? Is it real?
[14:56] Tom Bukowski: part of it is that in a way, all identity is role-playing
[14:57] Tom Bukowski: so are you "virutally Cherokee" or "cherokee" lol
[14:56] padlurowncanoe Dibou: perception is reality
[14:56] Tom Bukowski: there's no gene for being a doctor or a student, or even a mother or rather, that varies around the world[14:57] Tom Bukowski: part of the issue is that identity is also about recognition
[14:57] Tom Bukowski: it's not only what you say you are, but what others acknowledge you to be
[14:57] Tom Bukowski: Goffman among others had great things to say about that
[14:57] Gwenette Writer: in Hawaii native identity is bone … identity is a cultural construct yes, Tom??
[14:57] Sky Light: Native identity is blood
[14:57] Tom Bukowski: sigh, I'm too frazzled from trying to keep up with the questions to say anything better than that, Sky
[14:58] Tom Bukowski: but historically for "native americans" it was not blood, it was more complex, and the focus on blood quanta is shaped by White European notions of kinship
[14:58] Tom Bukowski: which doesn't make it inauthentic, only complex
[14:58] Tom Bukowski: there is a great article by James Clifford called "Identity in Mashpee" about these compleities of American Indian identity [Pp. 277-346 in his book The Predicament of Culture, Harvard University Press, 1988]
[14:58] Sky Light: key factor = acknowledgment by others in this regard: rl and sl interface.
[14:59] LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: The question of how we get to be "really" Choctaw or Cherokee or black is all over rl politics these days.
[15:00] Sky Light: but tribal membership is based on blood, as defined by tribal elders in the RL.
[15:00] Sky Light: or rather most tribes, lower 48.
[15:00] Nany Kayo: Tom says, "but historically for 'native americans' it was not blood, it was more complex, and the focus on blood quanta is shaped by White European notions of kinship." - Actually, it depends on who your mother is. It's mtDNA
[15:00] Nany Kayo: not exactly blood, but something like that.
[15:00] padlurowncanoe Dibou: to your question Sky - we know other cherokees see it as a matter of blood and not even that - but being in the roles … now for the individual who believes and roleplays it - well he/she believes

[14:28] Sky Light: how we can say this is "real" when people are role-playing? for instance, I can say I am a Native American, even a member of a tribe such as Cherokee - does this mean that I have become authentically Cherokee? Is it real?
[14:29] Extropia DaSilva: If you want it to be real, then it is, Sky.

[15:00] Galactic Baroque: I do not think one could be a 'real' cherokee here because it has a counterpart in rl that would have to match; but one could be a 'real' ethnotype that exists only on the grid, like a real caledonian.
[15:00] Marilena Basevi: a real caledonian!!
[15:01] Gabrielle Riel: That's because "Caledonian" was created here
[15:01] Lizzo Dreamscape: hmmm. so you are not a real Caledonian unless you are born here?
[15:01] Lizzo Dreamscape: heee
[15:01] Demi Janus: I know people who think they are acting out who they are, really dragons.
[15:03] Elegia Underwood stares meaningfully at Demi Janus and wonders what she means by "*think* [my emphasis] they are acting out".
[15:02] Galactic Baroque: i'm saying it IS possible to be a real Caledonian, because it does not exist physically.
[15:02] Nany Kayo: Galactic says, "I do not think one could be a 'real' cherokee here because it has a counterpart in rl that would have to match; but one could be a 'real' ethnotype that exists only on the grid." — I'm real enough.
[15:03] Nany Kayo: I'm not having that much trouble being Cherokee, wherever I am. It's all I can be.
[15:03] Tom Bukowski: I think all of these questions of identity are really interesting - I think there are ways in which identity in virtual worlds can work very differently (because embodiment is so different and changeable in virtual worlds), *and* ways in which debates over identity in virtual worlds like Second Life can teach us things about identity even in the actual world

voice in sl — the following conversation was taking place simultaneously alongside the others

[14:57] Galactic Baroque knows of a avie that will not use voice because he thinks it will make the avatar seem less real
[14:58] Lizzo Dreamscape: voice alters the illusion.
[14:58] Extropia DaSilva: Galactic is right. Voice just seems like somebody from another reality as possessed the person in SL.
[14:58] Roy Smashcan: I'd say voice was really controversial when it was coming out.
[14:59] Lizzo Dreamscape: using voice... why not get on the telephone... fine.. but different.
[14:59] CeAire Decosta: At least with text chat we can all "talk" at the same time and more-or-less not drown each other out!
[14:59] Tom Bukowski: voice is so interesting, that's a great question
[15:00] Tom Bukowski: what it does or does not do to virtual worlds
[15:00] Extropia DaSilva: One day, with improved tech, maybe voice will be acceptable. But right now, if this discussion was in voice we would still not have started, because of all the trouble getting it to work.
[15:00] CeAire Decosta: LOL Extropia!
[15:01] Extropia DaSilva: Well, it is true. Every time I go to a meeting that uses voice you get drop out, echoes, white noise, feedback. It is awful.
[15:02] LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: Try West of Ireland Library for voice that works.
[15:02] Riven Homewood: What I love about text is that we can have these various conversations going on at the same time without interrupting each other

copy of new book's first chapter

15:00] Tom Bukowski: before I forget, you can download the first chapter of my book for free at Princeton University Press (http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8647.html), or I have it as a THiNC book inside Second Life, I can give you a copy or Riven can

sequel, the next discussion

15:04] Riven Homewood: Tom will be back next month and do
[15:04] Riven Homewood: a second discussion
[15:04] Riven Homewood: This time about Freedom and Independence
[15:04] Riven Homewood: In SL
[15:05] Riven Homewood: as part of our September Project Commemoration
[15:05] Riven Homewood: Stand by for notices

bio, bukowski / boellstorff

Tom Bukowski in the Second Life™ world is Tom Boellstorff (Ph.D., Stanford, 2000).

He is the author of Coming of Age in Second Life: an Anthropologist Explores the Virtually Human (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2008).

Editor-in-Chief of the American Anthropologist, he is also Associate Professor of Anthropology, University of California, Irvine.

The discussion venue, the American Anthropologist Virtual Campus which he created on Anteater Island, is maintained by the kind support of the libraries of the University of California, Irvine.

bio, homewood / hewlett

Riven Homewood, Director of the Steelhead Public Library in the Second Life™ world is Jean Hewlett, Regional Librarian for the University of San Francisco.

publisher's note

Permission:

The transcript is published here with the permission of Bukowski / Boellstorff and with help from Homewood / Hewlett.

Liberties:

The editor - publisher has taken the following liberties for readability:
- adding sub-headings.
- correcting spelling in some instances, but not all, and adjusting some punctuation.
- omitting some, but not all, of the synchronous chat, thus clearing the focus on the main speaker.
- slightly re-organizing the sequence of some over-lapping chat in merely a few instances — you may regain the original sequence by looking at the time-stamps.

Publication date: