"when role-players say they are 'cherokee' are they real?"

[14:55] Tom Bukowski: Sky Light: "please, i'm still keen to delve into the problems about identity in fantasy land. When people role-play at being, for instance, Cherokee, so that they come to live it in here, believe it in here, and even to 'teach' it in here. does this mean that I have become authentically Cherokee? Is it real?
[14:56] Tom Bukowski: part of it is that in a way, all identity is role-playing
[14:57] Tom Bukowski: so are you "virutally Cherokee" or "cherokee" lol
[14:56] padlurowncanoe Dibou: perception is reality
[14:56] Tom Bukowski: there's no gene for being a doctor or a student, or even a mother or rather, that varies around the world[14:57] Tom Bukowski: part of the issue is that identity is also about recognition
[14:57] Tom Bukowski: it's not only what you say you are, but what others acknowledge you to be
[14:57] Tom Bukowski: Goffman among others had great things to say about that
[14:57] Gwenette Writer: in Hawaii native identity is bone … identity is a cultural construct yes, Tom??
[14:57] Sky Light: Native identity is blood
[14:57] Tom Bukowski: sigh, I'm too frazzled from trying to keep up with the questions to say anything better than that, Sky
[14:58] Tom Bukowski: but historically for "native americans" it was not blood, it was more complex, and the focus on blood quanta is shaped by White European notions of kinship
[14:58] Tom Bukowski: which doesn't make it inauthentic, only complex
[14:58] Tom Bukowski: there is a great article by James Clifford called "Identity in Mashpee" about these compleities of American Indian identity [Pp. 277-346 in his book The Predicament of Culture, Harvard University Press, 1988]
[14:58] Sky Light: key factor = acknowledgment by others in this regard: rl and sl interface.
[14:59] LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: The question of how we get to be "really" Choctaw or Cherokee or black is all over rl politics these days.
[15:00] Sky Light: but tribal membership is based on blood, as defined by tribal elders in the RL.
[15:00] Sky Light: or rather most tribes, lower 48.
[15:00] Nany Kayo: Tom says, "but historically for 'native americans' it was not blood, it was more complex, and the focus on blood quanta is shaped by White European notions of kinship." - Actually, it depends on who your mother is. It's mtDNA
[15:00] Nany Kayo: not exactly blood, but something like that.
[15:00] padlurowncanoe Dibou: to your question Sky - we know other cherokees see it as a matter of blood and not even that - but being in the roles … now for the individual who believes and roleplays it - well he/she believes

[14:28] Sky Light: how we can say this is "real" when people are role-playing? for instance, I can say I am a Native American, even a member of a tribe such as Cherokee - does this mean that I have become authentically Cherokee? Is it real?
[14:29] Extropia DaSilva: If you want it to be real, then it is, Sky.

[15:00] Galactic Baroque: I do not think one could be a 'real' cherokee here because it has a counterpart in rl that would have to match; but one could be a 'real' ethnotype that exists only on the grid, like a real caledonian.
[15:00] Marilena Basevi: a real caledonian!!
[15:01] Gabrielle Riel: That's because "Caledonian" was created here
[15:01] Lizzo Dreamscape: hmmm. so you are not a real Caledonian unless you are born here?
[15:01] Lizzo Dreamscape: heee
[15:01] Demi Janus: I know people who think they are acting out who they are, really dragons.
[15:03] Elegia Underwood stares meaningfully at Demi Janus and wonders what she means by "*think* [my emphasis] they are acting out".
[15:02] Galactic Baroque: i'm saying it IS possible to be a real Caledonian, because it does not exist physically.
[15:02] Nany Kayo: Galactic says, "I do not think one could be a 'real' cherokee here because it has a counterpart in rl that would have to match; but one could be a 'real' ethnotype that exists only on the grid." — I'm real enough.
[15:03] Nany Kayo: I'm not having that much trouble being Cherokee, wherever I am. It's all I can be.
[15:03] Tom Bukowski: I think all of these questions of identity are really interesting - I think there are ways in which identity in virtual worlds can work very differently (because embodiment is so different and changeable in virtual worlds), *and* ways in which debates over identity in virtual worlds like Second Life can teach us things about identity even in the actual world